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评论:关于教友在弥撒中牵手和举手的问题

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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-05 22:24:25 发表
举手和牵手不是同一个问题,举手是圣经中祈祷的姿势,而牵手在教会自古以来的历史中未曾出现。弥撒中的姿势,都有其意思。可惜,牵手——是喜欢的人自己赋予它意义的!举手祈祷,未必要牵手祈祷啊!
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-05 19:12:12 发表
拉手现象就太可怕了,一旦哪个堂口有这坏毛病,肯定有不良企图的男人专门跟着喜欢的女人坐她旁边,等唱天主经时狠狠的过把意淫的瘾,还有我要有传染病,随便拉手可好?礼仪没有规定就别出花色干这种让人恶心的把戏,不是我内心阴暗,而是教会原本就有很多稗子在其中,不能给那部分人作恶的机会。
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-05 18:56:46 发表
弥撒中的一些规范要是只要是礼仪中没写的,就怎么都可以,谁这么理解就太可怕了,与异端无异。如果唱天主经可以举手,请问可不可以陶醉的手舞足蹈呢?反正礼仪上没明确规定。其实严谨的态度是礼仪所未有规定的,是坚决不可以擅自添加的,因为从礼仪上没有明确写下这点,我就可以理解你骄傲的篡改礼仪,为严重的亵圣。执那种是是而非观点的人,你们有胆就那样做吧,将来到那一天你会知道它的严重性。
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-05 17:07:14 发表
网友 睁开眼吧 的原文:

举手表示向天,就如幼儿张开双手要爸妈抱一样!这是非常虔敬的姿势!就法律来讲,礼仪并无禁止!

有些习惯了”传统”的主教神父教友们反对举手或牵手,理由似乎神圣,如法利赛人一样为了法律,以为破坏了礼仪的神圣!我这里就有教友表示反对,没什么理由,就因为他以前没见过,与其说不合礼仪,更好说不合他的心意!请问这些人什么是神圣?举手祈祷或牵手念天主经就是破坏?目的就是破坏?这样就不神圣了么?很显然是哪些人只在意外在姿势呢?难道僵尸木偶一样站着或跪着,双手合十,低头弯腰就是虔诚?就是神圣?


举手祈祷的不要批评不举手的,不举手的也不要反对举手的!只要聚会时礼仪不乱,不要千篇一律!方济各教宗一再说不要千篇一律可不可以这样理解?


举手的不要追求新潮,不举手的也不要太过死板!


要是真的用心祈祷,参与礼仪何必太在意姿势呢?何况是假借礼仪神圣实则是按照自己的私意在判断别人!你要是闭着眼睛祈祷,用心眼注视你所敬爱的天主,哪有时间和闲心顾及别人如何?人家又没有吵到你!

手牵手并不表示心连心,难道不牵手就能表示同心合意?我觉得念天主经举手好,更能促使我们个人举心向父!牵手也好,表达我们大家都是一个天父的儿女,凸显这个我们!当然前提是有心,用心!也不要固执于举手,牵手!

一旦有人固执,问题就解决不了!这也不是单单用法律能解决的!


文字使人死,神使人活!姿势使人死,神使人活!

所以,最好是如教宗方济各一而再再而三的呼吁的,开放自己的心,不要封闭!若充满圣神,任何姿势都是神圣的,哪怕被认为是跳大神儿也无所谓!宗徒们充满圣神后不是被认为喝醉酒了么?若无圣神充满,什么姿势,仪式都是扯淡!


记住主耶稣的话吧:天主是神,要以心神和真理朝拜父!

不恶意破坏法律,也不要死守法律!不固执于礼仪,也不要轻视礼仪!

做属神的人!顺从圣神指引的真基督徒!

你就是一个唯恐教会不乱的“糊涂”、“迷糊”!把水搅浑可以到你的主子那里去领赏钱吧?
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-05 17:03:27 发表
网友 睁开眼吧 的原文:

举手表示向天,就如幼儿张开双手要爸妈抱一样!这是非常虔敬的姿势!就法律来讲,礼仪并无禁止!

有些习惯了”传统”的主教神父教友们反对举手或牵手,理由似乎神圣,如法利赛人一样为了法律,以为破坏了礼仪的神圣!我这里就有教友表示反对,没什么理由,就因为他以前没见过,与其说不合礼仪,更好说不合他的心意!请问这些人什么是神圣?举手祈祷或牵手念天主经就是破坏?目的就是破坏?这样就不神圣了么?很显然是哪些人只在意外在姿势呢?难道僵尸木偶一样站着或跪着,双手合十,低头弯腰就是虔诚?就是神圣?


举手祈祷的不要批评不举手的,不举手的也不要反对举手的!只要聚会时礼仪不乱,不要千篇一律!方济各教宗一再说不要千篇一律可不可以这样理解?


举手的不要追求新潮,不举手的也不要太过死板!


要是真的用心祈祷,参与礼仪何必太在意姿势呢?何况是假借礼仪神圣实则是按照自己的私意在判断别人!你要是闭着眼睛祈祷,用心眼注视你所敬爱的天主,哪有时间和闲心顾及别人如何?人家又没有吵到你!

手牵手并不表示心连心,难道不牵手就能表示同心合意?我觉得念天主经举手好,更能促使我们个人举心向父!牵手也好,表达我们大家都是一个天父的儿女,凸显这个我们!当然前提是有心,用心!也不要固执于举手,牵手!

一旦有人固执,问题就解决不了!这也不是单单用法律能解决的!


文字使人死,神使人活!姿势使人死,神使人活!

所以,最好是如教宗方济各一而再再而三的呼吁的,开放自己的心,不要封闭!若充满圣神,任何姿势都是神圣的,哪怕被认为是跳大神儿也无所谓!宗徒们充满圣神后不是被认为喝醉酒了么?若无圣神充满,什么姿势,仪式都是扯淡!


记住主耶稣的话吧:天主是神,要以心神和真理朝拜父!

不恶意破坏法律,也不要死守法律!不固执于礼仪,也不要轻视礼仪!

做属神的人!顺从圣神指引的真基督徒!

此意见不敢苟同。貌似有理,实则不然。您把它看作一件小事,我却把它看做一件大事。原因是天主教会是普世教会,礼仪必须统一。尽管在世界范围内,各国的礼仪有所不同,但至少在一个国家内,有必要统一。尽管您说的很有道理(用心!),但是,各行其是的话,走进不同的堂区却礼仪各不相同,让那些慕道者、望教者、外教人如何看待我们是普世教会?因此,我认为,至少应该由教区主教统一乃至整个中国教会统一!这不是一件小事啊!
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-05 13:09:16 发表
请参考罗马宗座天神之后大学礼仪教授麦蓝玛拉神父的观点,他正指出念天主教经时手牵手所带来的问题。有人可以翻译以下一文吗(http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur10.htm)?

其实香港教区某些礼仪作法与教会礼规及其背后精神相违背,最明显的是容许教友自蘸圣血、过度使用非常务送圣体员(教友都变成常务送圣体员了)…

Arinze枢机还是圣礼部主管时,曾质问香港教区教友自蘸圣血的做法,可惜问题不了了知。今天这做法竟成了常态,也在国内散播开来,成了常规!

近年在普世教会内已掀起回皈“礼仪的真谛”(取自本笃十六一书)的运动,强调在举行礼仪时虔敬天主的态度,弥撒的祭献幅度是基本及先于餐宴幅度。这些包括主祭面向东方(ad orientem)带领会众一起献祭钦崇天主(表达复活基督是升起的旭日,亦会从东方再度降来)、重建至圣所围栏(表达出至圣所乃神圣的空间)及教导信众用口领圣体乃教会最鼓励的正规方式。

本笃十六坚信:我们怎样举行礼仪及祈祷,便会有怎样的信仰及教友!

洛奇

-------------------------------------------------------

HOLDING HANDS AT THE OUR FATHER?

ROME, 18 NOV. 2003 (ZENIT).
Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

Q: Many say we should not be holding hands in the congregation while reciting the Lord's Prayer because it is not a community prayer but a prayer to "Our Father." Local priests say that since the Vatican has not specifically addressed it, then we are free to do as we please: either hold hands or not. What is the true Roman Catholic way in which to recite the Lord's Prayer during Mass? — T.P., Milford, Maine

A: It is true that there is no prescribed posture for the hands during the Our Father and that, so far at least, neither the Holy See nor the U.S. bishops' conference has officially addressed it.

The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so.

The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops' conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.

Thus, if neither the bishops' conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.

While there are no directions as to the posture of the faithful, the rubrics clearly direct the priest and any concelebrants to pray the Our Father with hands extended — so they at least should not hold hands.

One could argue that holding hands expresses the family union of the Church. But our singing or reciting the prayer in unison already expresses this element.

The act of holding hands usually emphasizes group or personal unity from the human or physical point of view and is thus more typical of the spontaneity of small groups. Hence it does not always transfer well into the context of larger gatherings where some people feel uncomfortable and a bit imposed upon when doing so.

The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer's God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal and merely human meaning.

For all of these reasons, no one should have any qualms about not participating in this gesture if disinclined to do so. They will be simply following the universal customs of the Church, and should not be accused of being a cause of disharmony.

A different case is the practice in which some people adopt the "orantes" posture during the Our Father, praying like the priest, with hands extended.

In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops' request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so.

Despite appearances, this gesture is not, strictly speaking, a case of the laity trying to usurp priestly functions.

The Our Father is the prayer of the entire assembly and not a priestly or presidential prayer. In fact, it is perhaps the only case when the rubrics direct the priest to pray with arms extended in a prayer that he does not say alone or only with other priests. Therefore, in the case of the Our Father, the orantes posture expresses the prayer directed to God by his children.

The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes, however, and was dropped from the agenda. ZE03111822
* * *
Follow-up: Hand-Holding at the Our Father [from 12-02-03]
Judging from the response to our reply regarding holding hands during the Our Father ..., it would appear that the world is divided into hand-holders and arm-folders with the occasional hand-upholder wedged in the middle.

If anything, the widespread division of opinion seems to show that holding hands does not occur spontaneously, at least not in large groups. Several readers made very interesting comments and I will try to address some of their concerns.

A correspondent from British Columbia suggested that the origin of hand-holding might stem from an interpretation of the liturgical norms themselves, particularly: the Ceremonial of Bishops No. 159: "After the doxology of the Eucharistic prayer, the bishop, with hands joined, introduces the Lord's Prayer, which all then sing or say; the bishop and the concelebrants hold their hands outstretched" and No. 237 of the New General Instruction of the Roman Missal: "(the priest) with hands outstretched and with the congregation ... pray the Lord's Prayer."

First, for the sake of precision, may I point out that our correspondent seems to be quoting from the earlier study translation of the GIRM. The definitive approved text states: "Then the principal celebrant, with hands joined, says the introduction to the Lord's Prayer. Then, with hands extended, he says the prayer itself together with the other concelebrants, who also pray with hands extended and with the people."

Some liturgists might refer to these documents to uphold the hypothesis that the whole congregation or, at least the concelebrants, hold hands during the Our Father. I do not believe, however, that it is a correct interpretation of the text. In English the expression "to hold one's hands" almost always refers to raising one's own hands and not another person's, in which case the gerund "holding" is usually adopted.

Whether one uses the earlier or the definitive translation the same expression "hands extended" (or outstretched) is used in all cases that the priest adopts this posture, for example, during the Eucharistic Prayer. Thus there appears to be no justification for interpreting it as holding hands only during the Our Father.

An Australian subscriber also points out: "The best argument for not holding hands is that the holding of hands anticipates and then negates the sign of peace." I must confess that I had never thought of this argument but it does have a certain internal logic.

Personally I would not go so far as to say that the gesture negates the sign of peace, but it does anticipate and duplicate it from the symbolic point of view and, as a consequence, probably detracts from its sign value.

A California reader observes that I said there is little difficulty with a family holding hands during the Our Father. He asks: Should not hand-holding also be appropriate, then, for a larger group, if we consider the parish as family? He also objects to "the idea it might make some feel uncomfortable. [...] Then let's not have them say the creed either. It might make them feel uncomfortable. Faith is all about being uncomfortable. Growth starts with discomfort."

As is often the case, the analogous value of words can lead to misunderstanding. Yes, the parish is, in a way, a family, but then so is the universal Church, and so is the human race. The point is that holding hands is a normal expression of affection for nuclear families or relatively small groups of people who know each other well.

It is not a usual expression for larger groups of people even though they may be united by spiritual bonds, such as membership in Christ's Mystical Body. I do not deny that it may happen but it is rarely spontaneous and is usually provoked by an organizing agent.

Our reader's second point expresses a great verity but I fear also misses the mark. It is very true that growth starts with discomfort and certain liturgical elements, such as the "Thy will be done" of the Our Father, should leave most of us decidedly discomfited. But one thing is the internal and spiritually nourishing discomfort caused by confronting our daily reality with God's Word or the truths of our faith, quite another the discomfort brought about by some avoidable human initiative.

Some readers asked if the U.S. bishops' vote against allowing the "orantes" posture meant that this gesture was forbidden in the United States. The bishops, in deciding not to prescribe or suggest any particular gesture during the Our Father, did not therefore proscribe any particular gesture either.

The bishops' conference decision does limit the possibility of another authority such as a pastor or even a diocesan bishop from prescribing this gesture as obligatory. But it need not constrain an individual from adopting the "orantes" posture nor, in principle, stop a couple or small group from spontaneously holding hands.

While holding hands during the Our Father is very much a novelty in the millenarian history of Catholic liturgy, the "orantes" posture, as one reader from Virginia reminds us, is as old as Christianity, is depicted in the catacombs, has always been preserved in the Eastern rites and was not reserved to the priest until after several centuries in the Latin rite — and even then not everywhere.

The controversy regarding the use of the "orantes" posture for the Our Father appears to be confined to the English-speaking world. In many other places, it is pacifically accepted as an optional gesture which any member of the community is free to perform if so inclined .... ZE03120221

 
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本站网友 睁开眼吧
2014-06-05 06:56:37 发表
怎么没听说有人对港台教会拿香炉碗上几柱香有异议呢?
 
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本站网友 睁开眼吧
2014-06-05 06:54:08 发表
据说以前礼仪规定主祭伸手规定尺码,举手规定高度!可有人说教宗都不遵守礼仪规定!手举那么老高,还挥舞他手里的棍子!


方济各教宗曾讲过现在很多基督徒是伪装起来的!只活在嘴上,是徒有虚表的!有人表面上欢乐,人性的活泼,可是肤浅!有人僵化死板,如死守着经文姿势!两者都没有圣神的喜乐和自由!


礼仪需要改革,可能有些人看到太过僵化,就改变些外在姿势!可有些人打着传统,神圣的招牌,连这都愿意改变!

只有外在的改革不是真正的改革!但是粗改革肯定是死路一条!


先改变内心,让天主来到心中,然后他做主,顺从圣神指引行事,再看看还会有这些无用的的争论么?

 
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本站网友 睁开眼吧
2014-06-05 06:38:13 发表
孩子在父母前该是何种姿势?达味在约柜前光着膀子跳舞谁反对了呢?谁敢反对呢?当然我们不能在堂里光着膀子跳舞祈祷!

有人在弥撒中敲锣打鼓,手舞足蹈并不合适,竟被容忍!而天主经举手或牵手这样并无大碍,为有些人且有益处的姿势却被鞭鞑!丢了西瓜捡芝麻!
 
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本站网友 睁开眼吧
2014-06-05 06:30:27 发表
举手表示向天,就如幼儿张开双手要爸妈抱一样!这是非常虔敬的姿势!就法律来讲,礼仪并无禁止!

有些习惯了”传统”的主教神父教友们反对举手或牵手,理由似乎神圣,如法利赛人一样为了法律,以为破坏了礼仪的神圣!我这里就有教友表示反对,没什么理由,就因为他以前没见过,与其说不合礼仪,更好说不合他的心意!请问这些人什么是神圣?举手祈祷或牵手念天主经就是破坏?目的就是破坏?这样就不神圣了么?很显然是哪些人只在意外在姿势呢?难道僵尸木偶一样站着或跪着,双手合十,低头弯腰就是虔诚?就是神圣?


举手祈祷的不要批评不举手的,不举手的也不要反对举手的!只要聚会时礼仪不乱,不要千篇一律!方济各教宗一再说不要千篇一律可不可以这样理解?


举手的不要追求新潮,不举手的也不要太过死板!


要是真的用心祈祷,参与礼仪何必太在意姿势呢?何况是假借礼仪神圣实则是按照自己的私意在判断别人!你要是闭着眼睛祈祷,用心眼注视你所敬爱的天主,哪有时间和闲心顾及别人如何?人家又没有吵到你!

手牵手并不表示心连心,难道不牵手就能表示同心合意?我觉得念天主经举手好,更能促使我们个人举心向父!牵手也好,表达我们大家都是一个天父的儿女,凸显这个我们!当然前提是有心,用心!也不要固执于举手,牵手!

一旦有人固执,问题就解决不了!这也不是单单用法律能解决的!


文字使人死,神使人活!姿势使人死,神使人活!

所以,最好是如教宗方济各一而再再而三的呼吁的,开放自己的心,不要封闭!若充满圣神,任何姿势都是神圣的,哪怕被认为是跳大神儿也无所谓!宗徒们充满圣神后不是被认为喝醉酒了么?若无圣神充满,什么姿势,仪式都是扯淡!


记住主耶稣的话吧:天主是神,要以心神和真理朝拜父!

不恶意破坏法律,也不要死守法律!不固执于礼仪,也不要轻视礼仪!

做属神的人!顺从圣神指引的真基督徒!
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-04 16:43:02 发表
我想提一个问题,祭献【代盐】,每主日。。。。。说法是耶稣说过;你们要成为地上的盐。。。。我不知道,是要成为【这个盐、】   还是在众人前做盐做光、 ‘
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-04 14:50:44 发表
我们通过避静与祈祷后特别是参加了对敬礼圣母无玷圣心后,感觉天主圣神和圣母特爱我们。无时无刻不在我们中间照管着我们,弥撒中在念天主经时,神父邀请众教友打开心扉手拉手迎接主的到来,我觉得并没有什么不妥,反而感觉到天主圣神已降临到我们中间,二手心和整个心身是火热的,是我们与主的共容,真正的把自己与耶稣一起祭献给阿爸天父。打开心扉是除去心里的一切私心杂念垃圾,使之洁净成为天主的宫殿,以迎接主耶稣的到来,很好的感觉。值得推广。神父只要有一颗爱主的心就不要计较举手是神父的专利。愿主更多的降福所有的司铎,感谢赞美主。阿门!
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-04 13:28:51 发表
至于弥撒中,念天主经时的举手,的确如以上所说,从教会礼规方面并没有明文禁止或赞许,这就为当地主教团或教会当局留下了一定的空间。但我认为,这一空间也包括要考虑当地文化的因素:而在中国文化当中,“举手”并不是祈祷或祷告民族文化本身的自然流露;最近国内的“举手”“牵手”的做法很大程度上受到了神恩复兴运动的影响和神父的个人喜好而强加推行的。而最近教宗在会见神恩运动成员时的讲话强调:神恩是为了合一,分裂来自于魔鬼。若因神恩复兴运动则在堂区内因为念天主经时举手或不举手而产生无形的分裂的话,我相信这并不是来自圣神。
此外,在尊敬拉辛格枢机的《礼仪的精神》中,他也提到:双手下垂是祈祷的自然表达,这并不单单是指犹太民族,在整个教会礼仪层面上来说,此一行为也是祈祷和谦卑的表现。
所以,针对“举手”没有必要强行推行,只要是“内在精神”的自然流露就好。
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-04 13:16:22 发表
很好,很有说服力,我看懂了。
 
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本站网友 匿名
2014-06-04 11:55:11 发表
论尽神学小组的回答很有说服力。只是手牵手以示共融也很好。因为天主并非远在世界之外,他就在我们中间,
 
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